This week, in episode 110, Kelly Allan—a consultant who specializes in sharing the principles espoused by the late management guru W. Edwards Deming—returns to the podcast for a conversation with Paul Downs, Jay Goltz, and Laura Zander. After World War II, you may recall, Deming was sent to Japan, where he was largely credited with resuscitating the devastated economy. He of course went on to become tremendously influential here, too. And if you read his books or scan his “14 points” for management, it’s clear that many of his lessons are now widely accepted. But not all of them. For example, he encouraged business leaders not to set production quotas, not to hold people accountable—at least not without first holding the process accountable—and not to address employee performance and pay in the same conversation. Some of these issues came up in an episode that Paul, Jay, and Laura taped in December, which is why we decided to invite Kelly, who is chairman of the Advisory Council of the W. Edwards Deming Institute and has his own management consulting business, to join us. The goal was to see if we could figure out what Deming would tell Paul, Jay, and Laura, and whether the three owners would be open to his suggestions. Spoiler alert: Paul’s not really buying it.