If you’ve been listening to this podcast, you know that we’ve been taking periodic dives into the world of employee stock ownership plans. We started down this path because Jay Goltz was thinking about his own succession issues. In a series of podcast episodes and conversations and seminars over the course of more than a year, Jay progressed through the three stages of ESOP discovery: First, he had his eyes opened. (“Wait a second. If you’re an ESOP, you don’t pay taxes?”) Then he got a little euphoric. (“I think I can make more money owning 70 percent of the business than I do now owning 100 percent.”) And then he confronted what I’ve been calling the ESOP industrial complex—the big firm lawyers and consultants who sometimes seem inclined to make ESOPs as complicated and expensive as possible. (“They want to charge me a ‘success fee’ for finding a buyer even though they didn’t find the buyer.”)

That introduction to Big ESOP occurred at a conference that Jay and Shawn Busse attended in Portland and that left Jay convinced that ESOPs are probably right for a lot of people but not for him. And yet, it was also at the conference in Portland that Shawn and Jay met Phillip Hayes, who takes a decidedly different approach than the industrial complex gang. What immediately stood out about Phil, who calls himself The ESOP Guy and who has his own podcast, Journey to an ESOP, is that he doesn’t view his mission as selling owners on ESOPs. His goal is to help owners figure out which solution is best for them, whether that’s an ESOP or something else. Which is why Shawn and I decided to sit down with Phil and have a conversation—brought to you by our sponsor, the Great Game of Business—about his approach.